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Something about Phil's Patreon I don't get.


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So, you get to become a Patreon for donating one dollar, yet to get into the Patrons Only Section here (which implies anyone whose a patron should get in), you need to donate 5 dollars. So paying one dollar doesn't make you a patron, it just makes you a donor it seems. Or am I missing something?

Edited by Squid_Girl
Red Text was added in the edit. Two responses where made before hand.
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9 minutes ago, Meteo_Zegarra2018 said:

Is there a question in the post?

The question is why $1 patrons aren't included in patron voting.

Also, as long as we're on the topic of flaws with Phil's Patreon there's the matter of new patrons having to pay him twice to get a perk ever since he enabled charge upfront.

Edited by VaultHunter23
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3 hours ago, Squid_Girl said:

So, you get to become a Patreon for donating one dollar, yet to get into the Patrons Only Section here (which implies anyone whose a patron should get in), you need to donate 5 dollars. So paying one dollar doesn't make you a patron, it just makes you a donor it seems. Or am I missing something?

$1 Makes you a Patreon. $5 Get's you a Patreon title on the forums + access to the exclusive forum. Not that hard to understand really.

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3 hours ago, TraditionalGames said:

$1 Makes you a Patreon. $5 Get's you a Patreon title on the forums + access to the exclusive forum. Not that hard to understand really.

Yeah. But what I'm saying is if I'm a Patreon, shouldn't I get to gain access to a forum walled off to Patrons, why isn't my one dollar enough?

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22 minutes ago, Squid_Girl said:

Yeah. But what I'm saying is if I'm a Patreon, shouldn't I get to gain access to a forum walled off to Patrons, why isn't my one dollar enough?

Because it isn't... Did you even pay a dollar? because if you did, I will gladly support you with the extra 4 you are missing. If it is that important to you to get that access, and you cant afford the extra cost.....

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3 hours ago, BrightSideViking said:

Because it isn't... Did you even pay a dollar? because if you did, I will gladly support you with the extra 4 you are missing. If it is that important to you to get that access, and you cant afford the extra cost.....

Thanks for the offer, but no. I'm not a patron (for various reasons I won't get into... yet.)

But if his Patrons/Fans are okay with it, then they're okay with it. For me, I just thought "If paying $1 makes me a patron, why isn't that enough to get into the patron's only section?"

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1 minute ago, Squid_Girl said:

Thanks for the offer, but no. I'm not a patron (for various reasons I won't get into... yet.)

But if his Patrons/Fans are okay with it, then they're okay with it. For me, I just thought "If paying $1 makes me a patron, why isn't that enough to get into the patron's only section?"

You do on patreon.com don't you? And it clearly states what you get for what price. And you wouldn't even want to get in there for a dollar, so i really don't see your concerns. I am sorry. 

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It doesn't seem like you don't understand anything, it just seems you disagree with the perk levels.

$1 entry makes it incredibly easy to be a Patron and contribute, AND to get your name in a video (which a lot of people enjoy). It's purposely cheap and easy, and therefore it appeals to the widest amount of people (currently 70 patrons).

$5 level gets you that $1 perk, plus gets you premium forum access, a custom title and the ability to vote in the polls for Patron events. These people aren't any "more or less" patrons than the $1 level, but because they did contribute more (five times as much as the $1 level), they get more.

The $1 is purposely not enough to get that $5 vote because:

-It's EASY to give $1 and try to throw a poll. I'd imagine a mean-spirited person (or a greedy one who REALLY wants to see one game over another) easily creating 20 fake accounts, each $1 pledges, if it meant they could get 20 votes in a game poll. Compare that with $100! Not gonna happen. The cap is there to protect from abuse of the voting system, for whatever reason.

-It takes time to get people "upgraded." Namely, I have to get the info from Patreon (which takes a few days after the 1st of the month), then I have to sort that info and send PMs to each person who is required to get an upgrade. That person has to read that PM and respond to me with their personal info from TheKingofHate.com forums, so we know which accounts to upgrade. I then have to put all of that data together and send it to my webmaster (Onyx) to process. The entire process of upgrading the $5 patrons can take upwards of 2+ weeks to complete. NOW: imagine the number of people who need upgrades going from around 50 to 100 or more?! It would be quite a daunting task and probably take even longer, and/or lead to confusion on how the process works. It would not be pretty.

SO to answer your question: 

32 minutes ago, Squid_Girl said:

Yeah. But what I'm saying is if I'm a Patreon, shouldn't I get to gain access to a forum walled off to Patrons, why isn't my one dollar enough?

No, you shouldn't get that access for the above reasons. I run the Patreon account, I set the perk levels, and that's that.

3 hours ago, VaultHunter23 said:

Also, as long as we're on the topic of flaws with Phil's Patreon there's the matter of new patrons having to pay him twice to get a perk ever since he enabled charge upfront.

There is no flaw, because your statement is factually incorrect. When you make a new pledge, you get charged for that pledge immediately and get included in that month's perks. Your pledge then auto-renews on the 1st of the following month; so if you're planning on NOT continuing to support my Patreon, you need to un-pledge as SOON as that initial pledge processes to be sure you don't get re-charged on the 1st of the month. If you are planning on continuing to pledge, there is no issue at all; you'll be auto-charged the 1st of every month and get the perks appropriate to your level; you can lower your pledge amount at ANY time and you won't be charged until the next month. So I have no idea what you're talking about. If people ARE getting double charged against their will, they should be contacting Patreon support to hash out the issue with them.

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26 minutes ago, Phil said:

There is no flaw, because your statement is factually incorrect. When you make a new pledge, you get charged for that pledge immediately and get included in that month's perks. Your pledge then auto-renews on the 1st of the following month; so if you're planning on NOT continuing to support my Patreon, you need to un-pledge as SOON as that initial pledge processes to be sure you don't get re-charged on the 1st of the month. If you are planning on continuing to pledge, there is no issue at all; you'll be auto-charged the 1st of every month and get the perks appropriate to your level; you can lower your pledge amount at ANY time and you won't be charged until the next month. So I have no idea what you're talking about. If people ARE getting double charged against their will, they should be contacting Patreon support to hash out the issue with them.

What I'm talking about is the simple fact that you don't give anyone their perks until the 1st of the month. So if someone who does want to keep supporting you pledges on, say, the 5th, they have to wait until the next month. At which point they are charged again. New patrons should be getting their perks sooner now that you have charge upfront enabled but they aren't. Logically someone who pledged $5 today should have their forum status upgraded and be able to take part in patron voting within a week at most. The flaw is you treating perks the same way you did when people only got charged monthly.

Two small changes would completely eliminate the problem, in my opinion. First, have Onyx teach you to upgrade people's forum status so you can do it yourself. That way it can get done much faster. Second, get in the habit of checking your patreon once a week to see if anyone new pledged to you or if anyone bumped up their pledge amount. Then just give them the perk or add their name to the list of people who get a shoutout or private video or whatever. Problem solved.

Edited by VaultHunter23
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2 hours ago, Squid_Girl said:

Yeah. But what I'm saying is if I'm a Patreon, shouldn't I get to gain access to a forum walled off to Patrons, why isn't my one dollar enough?

Because Phil decided that the forum access is worth more than $1. That's all there is to it. Not to mention that the forum section is used for voting on playthroughs. Honestly that's the reason your $1 Isn't enough.

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3 hours ago, TraditionalGames said:

Because Phil decided that the forum access is worth more than $1. That's all there is to it. Not to mention that the forum section is used for voting on playthroughs. Honestly that's the reason your $1 Isn't enough.

Yeah, I get that. I had a feeling that's why, but it's nice to know from another person.

Honestly, I made this thread to get a second opinion. And I got some, so thanks for the insight guys. ~De Geso

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Just check every 3-7 days for new patrons. How hard can that be? And this way it also reduce the work load of gathering all the new patrons name over a month and do it in a single session. Its like spreading your work out over a month and the patrons get their perk faster as intended for the instant charge.

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i feel like his entire patreon needs to be retooled from the ground up.  the goals shouldnt be a monthly thing and be a long term goal.  if it doesnt reach the goal after a period of time so be it. i seen people literally use patreon to pay their bills and have goals blatantly state thats where the money for the goal goes towards.  of course people are gonna say "omg phil is begging for money :0" but they were doing it anyways.  but the playthroughs should be a 5 reward for a series and they get to vote for etc.  the monthly marathons or whatever.  patreon as is makes it not at all worthwhile.  the $5 goal is basically worthless because the value in it lies with a goal that may or may not happen.  the perks should be on solid things not what ifs.  and the $50 goal is pointless why would anyone donate $50 if they only get the reward only one time?  i know its to support phil but he should be giving more than a one time goal for $50.

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When the Patreon goes back into the content and upgrading equipment and not to just play a game that might not get views (but always ends up getting views anyways) then I'll think about it. Until then, absolutely not. Nothing has changed or upgraded since April 2015 and the goal was hit consecutively after that for 15 months with nothing to show for it.

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Just caught that "STATE OF DSP" video, pretty much put it over the edge for me as far as Patreon goes. There was so many stories. DSP wants to save up for a California vacation, but doesn't know if he will be able to pay his bills, then I should pay him even if I don't like the goals cause he needs the money to sustain his business.. So I should pay him anyways?... no dude. Make fantastic content and create some great goals then we can talk about me donating to you. Other than that I'm not supporting someone every month just so they can sit at home and make the same quality video they've been making for the last 3 years.

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3 hours ago, CannonFodder said:

Just caught that "STATE OF DSP" video, pretty much put it over the edge for me as far as Patreon goes. There was so many stories. DSP wants to save up for a California vacation, but doesn't know if he will be able to pay his bills, then I should pay him even if I don't like the goals cause he needs the money to sustain his business.. So I should pay him anyways?... no dude. Make fantastic content and create some great goals then we can talk about me donating to you. Other than that I'm not supporting someone every month just so they can sit at home and make the same quality video they've been making for the last 3 years.

Fair enough. I'm not donating either because of security fears. That's reality.

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3 hours ago, Ivor_Dehaney said:

Agree. I paid $1 and get no benefit.

You get into the "thanks to the August patrons" crawl at the end of every Week In Preview, so about 4 times in a month. That's the direct benefit of that perk level as stated on my Patreon page.

17 hours ago, CannonFodder said:

When the Patreon goes back into the content and upgrading equipment and not to just play a game that might not get views (but always ends up getting views anyways) then I'll think about it. Until then, absolutely not. Nothing has changed or upgraded since April 2015 and the goal was hit consecutively after that for 15 months with nothing to show for it.

See, sorry, this is an incredibly ignorant AND ungrateful attitude. Nothing to show for it? I'm still putting out videos every single day, still streaming every single day, FOR FREE, AS A JOB!; i'm now doing high-quality edited content that's VASTLY different than what I was doing when I first started out. I've done tons of events/marathons that I NEVER did before my Patreon existed. Just because YOU cannot see the value in things changing/improving doesn't mean they haven't; it just means you're ignorant. "Improvement" isn't what Patreon is about (That's your misguided understanding of it) and physical equipment changes aren't the only ways things can improve. Your comment is incredibly insulting and uneducated.

20 hours ago, GiantEnemyShit said:

  the perks should be on solid things not what ifs.

That statement is complete nonsense. The ENTIRE POINT OF GOALS ON PATREON are "what ifs" based on if you hit the goals or not; it's a motivational tool to get people to pledge. Which is exactly what happens: I propose an event, people want to see that event, and then they pledge to make it happen. If I just had a longstanding goal with nothing special attached to it, NOBODY would pledge, because there's no motivation. No idea how you don't get that concept.

20 hours ago, GiantEnemyShit said:

and the $50 goal is pointless why would anyone donate $50 if they only get the reward only one time?

It's a $50 pledge to get a 20+ minute private Q&A video with me. This is like saying "it's pointless to go to the movies; you buy a ticket and only get to see one movie?" Again, more nonsense.

23 hours ago, VaultHunter23 said:

What I'm talking about is the simple fact that you don't give anyone their perks until the 1st of the month. So if someone who does want to keep supporting you pledges on, say, the 5th, they have to wait until the next month. At which point they are charged again.

Yeah, if there are double-charges like this that aren't intentional, then 1. the person should contact Patreon support and explain their issue, (because honestly? Patreon did NOT set up the up-front charges process properly) and 2. the person should immediately lower/change their pledge amount, if indeed they pledged a higher amount just to get a specific perk.

But what you're saying makes no sense: the person should be upgraded IMMEDIATELY to vote! But the poll doesn't exist yet. For example: let's say there were 20 people who were IMMEDIATELY upgraded when they first pledged in August; if I'd upgraded them right away, they'd get nothing for it, because the poll doesn't exist until I create it the first week of September. Why do I have to wait to create it? Because the people that didn't do first-time pledges, and didn't get charged up-front, don't get charged until the 1st of September; to make the poll earlier would mean they wouldn't get to vote. 

I get what you're saying: the up-front system is far from perfect and Patreon didn't really think it through. But it was NECESSARY because of the insane amount of false pledges I was getting. If you want to point fingers in blame, you shouldn't point them at myself or Patreon, but instead at the idiot kids who f'ed everything up to begin with by trolling my account and making the monthly numbers insanely over-inflated.

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14 minutes ago, Phil said:

See, sorry, this is an incredibly ignorant AND ungrateful attitude. Nothing to show for it? I'm still putting out videos every single day, still streaming every single day, FOR FREE, AS A JOB!; i'm now doing high-quality edited content that's VASTLY different than what I was doing when I first started out. I've done tons of events/marathons that I NEVER did before my Patreon existed. Just because YOU cannot see the value in things changing/improving doesn't mean they haven't; it just means you're ignorant. "Improvement" isn't what Patreon is about (That's your misguided understanding of it) and physical equipment changes aren't the only ways things can improve. Your comment is incredibly insulting and uneducated.

Where are you getting "FREE" from? If your videos were un-monitized then i'd understand, but their not free. Ad revenue pays for the videos you make. You've done marathons for games that cost a fraction of what the Patreons pay for. The only thing that's changed is the reviews, which KOGaming isn't even tied to Patreon..So what are you talking about? Where does the thousands of dollars the Patreon money goes to? If you were doing this for "free" years ago and you're still making the same high quality videos, where is the money going then?  That's all I want to know. Every Patreon Lets Player I know, part of the money goes into making the content better, you know greenscreens, better computer, upgrade recording equipment.. your content hasn't been upgraded in months even if you do count KOGaming. Soundproofing, mic, mixer, editing software....all that was purchased a long time ago. So see, sorry, I'm not paying for something you've been doing for years "for free" when nothing has changed, just like the anology you made about Minecraft being for free and no one will pay for the same product if they charge for it. Tell me the ways you have changed, and I'm not talking about editing skills, or creating a new channel, or playing games that you may or may not get views in..actual upgrades. Cause it just looks like the $1,250 goes straight in your pocket without anything to show for it.

30 minutes ago, Phil said:

That statement is complete nonsense. The ENTIRE POINT OF GOALS ON PATREON are "what ifs" based on if you hit the goals or not; it's a motivational tool to get people to pledge. Which is exactly what happens: I propose an event, people want to see that event, and then they pledge to make it happen. If I just had a longstanding goal with nothing special attached to it, NOBODY would pledge, because there's no motivation. No idea how you don't get that concept.

If people pledge enough to get the event then they get an event, but like the other month if people don't pledge enough they get nothing but a couple of thank yous and the money that was pledged goes in your pocket. It would be different if there were some lower goals, but its all or nothing when pledging to you... that's really janky.

In fact your whole Patreon process is janky. But I won't participate in it, hope people wise up to the fact they're getting screwed over when even pledging a dollar to your Patreon. Its truly flabbergasting the spectacle of this Patreon. I'd rather donate to the guy that made thousands off of making potato salad.

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Thats the thing, if theres this much hazzle and problems just to pledge and get the perks that they want, ppl will be discouraged to pledge regardless of whose fault it is. However, u r the one who benifit from this the most (patreon wont care) and the owner of this "supported business". Why dont u try figure it out how to make it work or encourage more ppl to pledge? Not by talking about it in prestream or vlog rant mind u. By making new small perks, ideas or new content to alleviate the problem.

ps: i could give an anology but i dont to bring up a fucking restaurant again

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28 minutes ago, Phil said:

Yeah, if there are double-charges like this that aren't intentional, then 1. the person should contact Patreon support and explain their issue, (because honestly? Patreon did NOT set up the up-front charges process properly) and 2. the person should immediately lower/change their pledge amount, if indeed they pledged a higher amount just to get a specific perk.

It's not an unintentional double charge Phil, that's how Patreon works with charge upfront turned on. In the case of a new patron they're charged the full amount immediately and then, assuming they don't change their pledge, that same amount on the 1st of every month. Existing patrons who raise their pledge are charged the difference between the new one and the old one immediately and then the full amount of the new pledge on the 1st of every month if they don't change it.

So like I said, you waiting until the 1st to dole out perks results in people paying twice for the same perk.

28 minutes ago, Phil said:

But what you're saying makes no sense: the person should be upgraded IMMEDIATELY to vote! But the poll doesn't exist yet. For example: let's say there were 20 people who were IMMEDIATELY upgraded when they first pledged in August; if I'd upgraded them right away, they'd get nothing for it, because the poll doesn't exist until I create it the first week of September. Why do I have to wait to create it? Because the people that didn't do first-time pledges, and didn't get charged up-front, don't get charged until the 1st of September; to make the poll earlier would mean they wouldn't get to vote.

When I said the person should be upgraded immediately to vote I was referring to people who newly pledge $5 or more this month, not last month, and even when the poll doesn't exist $5 patrons still get exclusive forum access. So they still get something. I'm also willing to bet that the majority of people who pledge $5 or less stay pledged, So they'd get to vote regardless.

36 minutes ago, Phil said:

I get what you're saying: the up-front system is far from perfect and Patreon didn't really think it through. But it was NECESSARY because of the insane amount of false pledges I was getting. If you want to point fingers in blame, you shouldn't point them at myself or Patreon, but instead at the idiot kids who f'ed everything up to begin with by trolling my account and making the monthly numbers insanely over-inflated.

I understand that it was necessary, all I'm saying is that you should have adjusted to the changes it brought about rather than continuing to do it as if nothing changed. I've already made my suggestions as to how to improve the whole process for your patrons so I won't make them again. All I'm saying is it can be better.

The upfront system is fine by the way, but it wasn't designed exclusively for cutting down on false pledges. It was designed so creators could get their money sooner and so patrons could get their perks faster as well.

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1 hour ago, Phil said:

That statement is complete nonsense. The ENTIRE POINT OF GOALS ON PATREON are "what ifs" based on if you hit the goals or not; it's a motivational tool to get people to pledge. Which is exactly what happens: I propose an event, people want to see that event, and then they pledge to make it happen. If I just had a longstanding goal with nothing special attached to it, NOBODY would pledge, because there's no motivation. No idea how you don't get that concept.

It's a $50 pledge to get a 20+ minute private Q&A video with me. This is like saying "it's pointless to go to the movies; you buy a ticket and only get to see one movie?" Again, more nonsense.

Yeah, if there are double-charges like this that aren't intentional, then 1. the person should contact Patreon support and explain their issue, (because honestly? Patreon did NOT set up the up-front charges process properly) and 2. the person should immediately lower/change their pledge amount, if indeed they pledged a higher amount just to get a specific perk.

But what you're saying makes no sense: the person should be upgraded IMMEDIATELY to vote! But the poll doesn't exist yet. For example: let's say there were 20 people who were IMMEDIATELY upgraded when they first pledged in August; if I'd upgraded them right away, they'd get nothing for it, because the poll doesn't exist until I create it the first week of September. Why do I have to wait to create it? Because the people that didn't do first-time pledges, and didn't get charged up-front, don't get charged until the 1st of September; to make the poll earlier would mean they wouldn't get to vote. 

I get what you're saying: the up-front system is far from perfect and Patreon didn't really think it through. But it was NECESSARY because of the insane amount of false pledges I was getting. If you want to point fingers in blame, you shouldn't point them at myself or Patreon, but instead at the idiot kids who f'ed everything up to begin with by trolling my account and making the monthly numbers insanely over-inflated.

1). the goal being based on what ifs has an issue and the goals as i said should be on long term goals that have no finite deadline.  i seen tons of patreons having goals that have no deadline i seen one saying "if we reach this goal we will make a book" they might have stuff drafted for said book but the price is something for the heavy lifting etc.  goals should be used for long term projects.  the current goals can be applied better as rewards themselves that affect monthly series.  for instance if i pay $5 that can get me to vote for a monthly series you were doing each month.  if nobody pledges $5 then you pick the game or you just dont do the series.  but if enough people pledge $5 they can vote for that monthly series that is assured to happen.  that way people arent paying $5 to vote and if the goal doesnt reach they just pissed away $5.  your rewards dont entice anyone to pledge except for the people who are diehard supporters which is fine but if you want your patreon to succeed you need to make the rewards more enticing and have a better impact than a goal that might not happen and might cause people to stop pledging.  its not nonsense i seen successful patreons do this and it works but this is just a suggestion i dont know why you have to call it "nonsense" and act as if its stupid.  the longstanding goal isnt the reason to pledge its the rewards.  the rewards perk levels whatever you want to call them are the incentives not the goal.  the goal is what you want the money to go to.  the perks/rewards are the incentives.

 

2). the movie analogy doesnt work simply because i dont spend $50 to go to the movies.  and it falls through because if i spent $50 to your reward i get one video and i cant get another video despite me donating $50 the following month.  the movie theater i can go countless times give them money and see different movies every time i go.  the movie theater gives you way more freedom to go back and pay to see another movie than your $50 reward.  but just looking at this the jump between $20 to $50 is insanely steep either add goals in between or lower the $50 goal and make a $50 goal more rewarding maybe make it a direct request playthrough or something i dont know but right now $50 is a lot to ask for from a yter that isnt as big as he used too.  

3). if you take my suggestions or not is fine i dont care but this is just ideas you can refine and adapt as you see fit.  but your goals at this point isnt attractive and they arent "unique" because every single goal has been a marathon of sorts.  when you say "unique" when you talk about any goal i just roll my eyes because they arent unique at all.  

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